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Meadows
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Phenom overclocking - brace yourselves [updated]

Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:31 am

Version 1.2

This post is not meant to be universally right, it just sums up my personal experiences and may provide a couple of grappling hooks to people who have trouble.
Always use the latest AMD OverDrive. The latest version is v.3.0.2.
This post is very basic and covers everything regardless of many people knowing most of it by heart.

Let's start with the history side. Yesterday (at the time of posting this) my new CPU arrived, which is a Phenom X4 9550, replacing the older Athlon64 X2 4000+. Bought it for approximately 185 dollars plus shipping (Europe).
The old processor ran at 2.93 GHz, and did that between 1.500 and 1.525 volts, thanks to unlucky binning. The new processor ran at 2.2 GHz. I know benchmarks, I knew single- or double-threaded performance would suffer. It is basically why I decided to overclock and find the maximum.

The following are my observations and are by no means universal laws or such.
What to note:
AMD's Phenom is the same monolith to CPUs as what nVidia's G80 and GT200 are to GPUs. Similarly, it has 3 main domains to check on and overclock/restrict:
CPU multiplier, memory controller multiplier and HT multiplier. Also, I'll be noting some things regarding RAM, as I had issues there too, at first.

1. CPU multiplier
- Advantage: allows boosting processor speed without taking on the RAM as well, ergo multiplier-overclocking requires no checking on the RAM afterwards.
- Disadvantage: the increments are coarse, even with half-multipliers.
- Other: some cores may be performing sub-par to others (people frequently complain about the third core, a.k.a. #2) - by setting the multiplier lower, you can achieve a stable boot, then use AMD OverDrive's automatic profile loading to bring the remaining 3 cores to the maximum multiplier once Windows has started.

2. Memory Controller multiplier
- This specifies the speed at which the CPU's memory controller will work, and is rarely likely to function happily above 2100 MHz (or even at just that much). I haven't tried it actually, I know my PC doesn't boot with 2300 MHz and works just fine at 2080, so my estimates may not be true. Note that AMD OverDrive will report this speed as "Northbridge (NB) speed".
- You should decrease this multiplier if you have to push the reference clock (like in my case - I didn't get a Black Edition processor). As I stated, the system is likely to become unbootable if you keep it high. Although 9 may be workable for mild overclocks and 8 seems like a sweet spot, you may need to throttle back to a multiplier of 7 if you push the reference clock far too high.
- Other: note that this multiplier has no effect at all on the speed of your RAM sticks, but has an effect on system performance.

3. HT multiplier
- Now this one is a total bitch. I've had more "take out battery, wait, place it back" cycles because of it than ever before (might've been the board's fault at the time, too). The deal is basically this: your HyperTransport link provides the main interconnect between your CPU and your motherboard (at the northbridge). The BIOS isn't letting on more than that, although I've heard it's also the inter-core connection. While its multiplier may vary from 1 to 13 (in my PC), which means 200 to 2600 MHz using the default reference clock, a Phenom (or newer) system will be constantly throttling back whenever the HT link reaches or outruns the memory controller's speed.
- That means you need to keep the HT multiplier equal to or less than the memory controller multiplier if you plan to overclock at all. Apart from the down-throttling deal with PCs, I've also noticed utter unbootability (with a higher reference clock) if my HT multiplier exceeded the memory controller's by 1, 2 or more, even if I was attempting to keep its actual speed under the absolute limit of 2600 MHz.

Basically, you want to achieve the highest possible multiplier+reference clock configuration, while keeping the memory controller at bay (relatively), and checking the HT link according to the memory controller. This isn't the case where you want everything maxed out, but it might not matter at all anyway, so long as the CPU speed is high(er).
Here comes the other nuisance, pure candyland:

Phenom RAM controlling
Phenom processors can work with RAM in "Ganged" or "Unganged" mode. This setting might have a bigger impact on your system's overclockability and/or performance than you think. Note that both settings are "dual channel" regardless of the physical bit width numbers your motherboard will post.

* Ganged:
Your RAM modules are "ganged" together and one core handles full dual-channel. This is optimal when you're testing with synthetic benchmarks: Sandra and EVEREST are not compatible with Phenom's RAM methods and only recognize single-threaded memory handling. Therefore, ganged mode is for getting the kicks out of benchmarks.
Note: your RAM will be more stable.

* Unganged:
Each RAM module you have can be paged at any time, thanks to "multithreaded memory handling". This is the option you want if you don't play benchmarks. It will provide the best performance, and it will show in numbers too, once Sandra and/or EVEREST receive updates accordingly.
Note: some motherboards have shoddy support, where you might need to raise voltages even at stock speeds because of this - if it works at all. On a good board, this setting should work fine.

----

That's all the info about it, here's the basic "to do list":
- Increase multiplier or reference clock until it becomes unstable (BSODs are often caused by CPU errors, so you'll know it's that). Then increase voltage, rinse and repeat.
- Every now and then, make sure that your memory controller isn't running too fast. Trying to keep it to/under 2100 MHz may be a good target.
- Always restrict the HT multiplier to the memory controller multiplier.
- Set your memory speed one notch lower (for example, 667 MHz DDR2 for 800 MHz modules), but make sure your timings don't tighten along with it. You will know that RAM instability is occuring, if your computer reboots out of the blue or if the screen freezes - milder faults might cause programs, services or drivers to stop, or DEP to malfunction.
Some RAM kits come with varying SPD values, even from the same brand and type. Try setting timings to the lowest common denominator to reach that extra notch with the system, should RAM hold you back.
* When you have the maximum CPU speed, you can experiment with higher memory speeds, unganged mode, timings/voltage and whatever else floats your boat.

Note: your motherboard northbridge and southbridge may require a tiny voltage bump, just in case.

----

I hope some of the above information will help those who want to overclock Phenoms but are stuck or experience disappointing limitations and results.
I might update this space if I get even higher results from my CPU (currently 2,926 MHz). Stay tuned. I hope I'm not a victim of **** binning again. But I surely am, I know my luck. :P

Version 1.2 p.s.: I might update this if I get that motherboard I was eyeing with working ACC. That should send off system performance further with a horse kick.
Last edited by Meadows on Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:10 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
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Re: Phenom overclocking - brace yourselves

Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:45 am

Nice info, moving to Overclocking.
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Meadows
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Re: Phenom overclocking - brace yourselves

Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:22 am

The "restrict HT multiplier to below memory controller multiplier" advice above may not be right, but it might be one of the good safety measures.
I was about to type this, after my computer booted up with both multipliers set to 7 without throttling back the CPU. However, during typing this, the motherboard executed an emergency shutdown (ergo it literally cut off everything - almost looks like when the main power goes off).
I raised my NB voltage by one more notch (2 in total now, that's +0.05 V) and so far so good, but I may just restrict my HT multiplier to 6 as soon as more trouble happens.

Right now, my reference clock is 267 MHz and the processor passed my usual 7 minute stability test in AMD OverDrive without errors, which isn't fully representative of my needs as the CPU will rarely be maxed out.
This basically means a processor speed of around 2933 MHz now, with a memory controller speed of around 1870 MHz (multiplier is only 7 now, as the computer was beeping and refusing to POST since the memory controller surpassed 2100 MHz after setting the reference to 267).

I'm extremely impressed with the performance/heat ratio of this processor, too. It can be considered fairly warm when idle, sure, but it's nowhere near as bad under load as I had feared. Right now, it's faster than my old dualcore on a per-core basis, clock for clock basis, as well as regarding number of cores, yet it's actually cooler than my old CPU, using the exact same aftermarket air cooler. It's a hot summer here and my ambient temperatures can't really be kept below 19 degrees (the way I like it), so the processor floats back and forth between 68 and 73 degrees when under load. If you think that's bad, consider that my old CPU was 5-6 degrees hotter on average while doing less work.

If you own a Phenom and are trying to find the maximum too, feel free to post your results.
I certainly won't stop here, my dream goal was the magical, round "3 GHz" limit. However I wouldn't be sad if I had to keep the current speeds, as this thing is already blazing hell compared to what I used to have. And it was cheaper than any intel quad alternative, not to mention I didn't need to buy a new motherboard either.
 
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Re: Phenom overclocking - brace yourselves

Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:25 am

I got a 9550 and cheap ECS motherboard 3 weeks ago, but besides a couple of hours playing with it, havent been able to do much due to real life issues.

However, I can say that with 4 x 2GB sticks of OCZ DDR2 (8GB total), 64bit Vista, and just making some changes in the bios, I was able to get a 400+ Mhz OC without breaking a sweat.
Screen shot below, but stay tuned for more.

(Screen shot shows AMD's Overdrive stress test getting all 4 core to 100%, and just for fun I ran a couple if instances of the real time lighting demo - this is on the 780G chipset, so this loads up the graphics portion of the chipset as well.)

Image
 
Meadows
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Re: Phenom overclocking - brace yourselves

Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:45 am

I could reach the usual 2.6 GHz without any special tricks, too, although I see you even undervolted it by 1 notch.
I don't think I'm going to do that, as I'm planning to go high and temperature isn't an issue.

It's a real shame that Crysis didn't really become faster as the game is using 25-45% of my full processor power on average - but it was very nice to see that the game can spread the load relatively evenly.
I can tell you, this is the best 185-dollar processor I've ever owned.
 
Meadows
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Re: Phenom overclocking - brace yourselves [updated]

Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:36 am

Updates:
First off, I believe I've reached the maximum of my CPU's performance at around 3,025 MHz (which I consider very, very good). At this point, there are strange symptoms. Even if I lower the multipliers and add prodigious amounts to the NB voltage, the computer will not boot at anything higher than a 275 MHz reference clock. Motherboard or chipset issue? Let's hope so - that would mean I can still extract more from this later on with a new board. For now, it performs past my expectations.

Update on Phenom RAM handling
The following information also includes speculations, so take it with a shovelful of salt.

Ganged:
Apparently, in this mode your RAM sticks are all handled in legacy dual-channel mode by one memory controller. Best for benchmarks.
Recommended if you run 2 modules (read on to see why I think that).

Unganged:
This mode is villainous, and I might have figured out why. It was causing severe instability with my 2 RAM sticks, which required much more voltage than they usually would when in this mode.
The deal's like this: every core gets a RAM module. Therefore, this is recommended if you have 4 RAM modules - in that case, the processor can arch up to a theoretical maximum of 256 bits of RAM bandwidth and this critically improves performance in some tasks, particularly image editing.
So why was it unstable with 2 modules? My thoughts are as follows: cores 1 and 3 tried to access the first stick, and cores 2 and 4 tried to access the second stick, since I don't have 4 sticks. This caused too much traffic on the modules and they needed more voltage. However, EVEREST image editing benchmarks have shown that even with 2 modules, the CPU score increased by a staggering amount nearly reaching 30%. Even without this RAM mode, the processor was still on top against the pre-defined system configuration scores in EVEREST in the image editing benchmark.

This might mean that if you have 4 modules, the Phenom is your choice if you're into photo editing or have a videocard low on RAM with Vista (or, heaven forbid, integrated video) as the OS employs its own method of "turbocache" regardless of what card you use, and unganged mode might critically impact performance in "out of VRAM" scenarios for the better.

Remember, my thoughts on the unganged mode are pure speculations, don't take them as facts carved in stone.
If you own a Phenom and have something to show/tell, feel free to do so.
 
Meadows
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Re: Phenom overclocking - brace yourselves [updated]

Sat Jun 28, 2008 1:32 pm

I've finally experienced a common motherboard-related issue with Phenom overclocking, that is, the computer fails when the CPU idles a lot, yet works fine if it has work to do.
The failure can be in any form: simple hang (and severe sound anomalies if you had music playing), or lost monitor output paired with a hang, or a reboot out of the blue.

I've more or less rectified this by adding even more demonic amounts of voltage to both the NB and the SB, but I'm not sure if that's ultimately a good solution. I've never seen a fried motherboard, I'm hoping for the best with this asset.

Does anyone have any experience with more recent AMD chipsets? I'd like to hear how those work with this. I use the AMD 770 which has the SB600 ticktocking for it.
 
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Re: Phenom overclocking - brace yourselves [updated]

Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:46 am

Meadows: First rule of Phenom is that HT Link speed can NOT be faster than NB/IMC speed, even if you underclock, that won't work!

I know you don't have alot of respect for my opinions, but I bought my 1st Phenom (9600) back in December, so I do have a fair amount of experience.

Phenoms, don't like alot of V's. All I can say is take it easy on the voltages... Anything over 1.35 on the Cores and 1.3 on the NB may give temporary results but in the end it won't be stable, and give the freezing problems you mentioned. That being said, the fact that your chip will hit 3+ Ghz is a good sign. :wink:

The rumor is that the SB750 chipset (and additional Pins) will fix the freezing problem and allow the CPU to run at higher speeds...

I can get my chip to boot and run at 2.9Ghz, but i's not stable at all and always crashes at just the wrong time!! :roll:

My current ROCK SOLID settings on an MSI K9A2 with a 9850BE are:
267x10.5x8x7- 1.325v on the CPU, 1.3v on the IMC and 1.3 on the HT...
This results in the following settings: 2.8 Ghz CPU, 2.14 NB, 1068 Mem and 1870 on the HT Link.

I'm glad to hear you finally took the Phenom plung... Take your time, get it working stable and then let me know if you still think my "Smooth" comment was BS... 8)
 
Meadows
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Re: Phenom overclocking - brace yourselves [updated]

Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:40 am

It was BS. You don't measure hardware by saying that "A is smooth, B is not". You may have "experience" but you don't know much about performances and measurement. ;)
Besides, I have experience too now.

As I said it didn't work when the HT speed was higher than the memory controller speed (at least I think I included that), so you're not telling much news there.
In some rare cases, it didn't work even if they were just equal, at other times it did.

My motherboard heavily limits the voltages I could bump the Phenom with (maybe to protect less capable circuitry? It's an AMD 770 chipset, good at that though) - I can't give it more than +0.1 V, so we're right at hitting 1.35 there.

Sniff around online a bit - it appears that the vast majority of overclockers are hitting a brick wall at about 3 GHz, looks to be universal with the current revision and chipsets. It's rare when someone has the luck to do more, I've heard of 3.2 GHz just once.

I chose this quadcore because it was 185 dollars at the time of purchase (a while ago), and I needed cores rather than raw clock speeds (though, being an overclocker, I'm having both now).
The choice was made to save money. I wanted to keep my current motherboard, I was using an X2 with this AMD 770 board previously.

Edit: the advice (keep HT multiplier lower than memory controller) is wrong in a sense that they should be able to be equal too. I didn't mean you could push it up to eternity.
Edit 2: It looks like the weird clock throttling I sometimes experienced may have been caused by the AMD OverDrive beta itself. It didn't happen ever since uninstalling the program. I also have a new BIOS revision which has done some undocumented changes (such as changes to RAM handling) so I'm currently re-doing my overclocking efforts from scratch and I'll see where I get with this BIOS.
 
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Re: Phenom overclocking - brace yourselves [updated]

Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:03 pm

Hi Everyone. I'm "brand" new member of techreport forum. More then year have passed since member named Meadows wrote that post and I'm actually trying to achieve same results as he did- overclock AMD x4 9550 to as high stable frequency as possible. And I'm struggling. Any help would be appreciated. I have very similar rig as he had writing this post.

So mine would be:
AMD 64 x4 9550 (HD9550WCJ4BGH)
GA MA770-DS3 Rev.1
4GB (2x2GB) DDR2 Patriot- Viper series (PVS24G6400LLK) PC2-6400 (4-4-4-12) v2.1-2.2 (Ganged mode)
PawerColor HD4870 512MB DDR5
SAMSUNG Spinpoint F DT HD502IJ 500GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5 (AHCI mode)
Power Supply: Modecom Feel III 500W
CPU cooling: CoolerMaster Vortex 752
BIOS F7f
WINDOWS 7 RC 64bit

I have pretty limited OC experience. OC'ing my old CPU AMD 64 x2 5200 with Gigabyte's EasyTune5 Pro by 14% :wink:
I also read few tutorials and many post on OC so I understand basics.

Reason for OC'ing x4 9550. Well I'd like to run GTA IV smoothly on full specs. And I guess x4 9550 at stock 2200mhz is a bottleneck.

For some reason I can not OC x4 9550 with EasyTune5 Pro in "Easy Mode" since whatever percentage I'll bump it up, comp crashes.
In EasyTune5 Pro "Advanced Mode" I can only OC it 10% by rising "FSB" to 220mhz. Anything more it becomes unstable shortly after.

By manipulating BIOS settings I achieved "stable" 2805mhz. As much as I could I just fallowed settings Meadows listed in above post. Although I used other memory timings. I got them from here : http://forums.tweaktown.com/f69/problem ... mhz-33287/
Here they are:

x CAS# latency 4T
x 1T/2T Command Timing 2T
x TwTr Command Delay 2T
x Write Recovery Time 4T
x Precharge Time 2T
x Row Cycle Time 17T
x RAS to CAS R/W Delay 4T
x RAS to RAS Delay 2T
x Row Precharge Time 4T
x Minimum RAS Active Time 12T


I stressed the 2805mhz OC settings with OCCT 3.1 soft for about 15 min and I decided to try OC it more. But after I restarted comp BIOS reset it. Later on I tried to OC it to stable 2700mhz and after short stress test I restarted comp and mobo totally powered off whole comp (pulled the plug surd of speak). Very strange, never happened before. But I've read in the post that it also happened to Meadows so I didn't get heart attack (or cardiac arrest as Dr House would say :wink: ) when it happened. Clearing CMOS helped and comp boot it up. But still, I didn't managed to get stable OC especially that even if Windows worked fine on OC every time I needed to restart comp, BIOS reset all settings to default.

Since I need the OC only for playing one game for now; I was wondering is there a way to conserve to some extent components of my comp and power by setting up certain settings in BIOS permanently and only altering certain setting in EasyTune5 Pro, for ex: "FSB" and vCore voltge when i need OC for playing GTAIV.

One more think. Since I moved from x2 5200 to x4 9550 I have problem with memory dual channel mode. In order for memory to work in 128bit mode I set them in BIOS to GANGED mode. But when I check specs in AMD OverDrive in says memory modules works in single channel mode. How can I set them to work in dual channel mode? Or they're working in dual channel mode just OverDrive miss-named something?

If it will be necessary I can provide screen shots. Thanks for any help in advance. :D
 
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Re: Phenom overclocking - brace yourselves [updated]

Sun Sep 20, 2009 10:27 pm

This all sounds like a complete PITA....I guess gone are the days of simple Athlon XP OC'ing. Do yourselves a favor...get a Core 2. It took me 15 seconds to get a 20% OC out of it and if I tried I could prob get a 33% OC. So simple... :)
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Meadows
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Re: Phenom overclocking - brace yourselves [updated]

Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:19 am

Axelwww, make sure you uninstall EasyTune and never put something like that on your PC again.

You are very correct that your CPU is a huge bottleneck for GTA 4. That game needs several fast cores. Speaking of which, I can play it pretty well.

I can't say anything about losing BIOS settings, but I'd like to know exactly what your values are (for everything) in the overclocking menu of your BIOS.
Skip the memory timings, they seem fine for your high-performance RAM.
In case your RAM is the issue, however, try a more lax timing set:
CAS latency 5T
1T/2T Command Timing 2T
TwTr Command Delay 3T
Write Recovery Time 5T
Precharge Time 3T(?)
Row Cycle Time 20T or 21T
RAS to CAS R/W Delay 5T
RAS to RAS Delay 3T
Row Precharge Time 5T
Minimum RAS Active Time 15T


AMD OverDrive might have a feature to automatically load overclocking after booting (I haven't checked it in a while, my current board is "broken" and OverDrive won't work), and if that's the case, you might want to give it a whirl. In every other case, working BIOS-overclocking would be splendid, but I'm afraid I don't know where your problems come from regarding that.

If your BIOS doesn't mention a specific "single/dual channel" option anywhere, then re-check which slots your modules are occupying, and if everything is in correct order, it's reasonably safe to assume that you're in dual-channel mode. Also look at your POST screen output (just after you start up the PC/motherboard) - it might mention the mode you're really in, and it's usually never wrong.
 
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Re: Phenom overclocking - brace yourselves [updated]

Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:24 am

CPUZ is also pretty good at being able to read what configuration your RAM is running in. I haven't reinstalled OverDrive since upgrading to Windows 7, but I do remember it detected my memory configuration correctly so you may have your RAM in the wrong slots. If I remember right, OverDrive also has the option load a specific profile at Windows startup. It's in the Options section. OverDrive installs a service specifically to handle it so you don't need to start up OverDrive specifically. With regards to OCing the 9550, I don't have much experience with that. I own a 9950BE so I just use multiplier overclocking. I love OverDrive though, it makes overclocking stupidly easy and you get access to options you would otherwise need to be in the BIOS for.
 
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Re: Phenom overclocking - brace yourselves [updated]

Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:38 am

Wow I'm positively surprised that so many people already responded to my post.

About EasyTune5- I uninstalled it in past several times but some how I always go back to it. And I do realize it's buggy piece of...

About Dual-Channel mode. My memory modules are inserted in two adjacent memory slots of the same red color. According to mobo manual they're in slot 1 & 2. But in OverDrive the slot are marked as slot 2 & 3. POST screen shows that memory is in 128bit GANGED mode. But when I had other CPU in past- x2 5200 POST screen showed 128bit Dual-Channel mode.

I didn't use OverDrive for my OC because it crashed my comp few times when I tried it. Mainly because when I adjusted settings in OverDrive "Novice Mode" (by slider) I couldn't see output of my changes before I would choose to apply it. Plus after last crush (5 min
ago) OverDrive and AMD Fusion shows error when I try to open them that exe file was removed. So I guess I will have to reinstall them.

Now, here are settings from overclocking menu tab in my BIOS. I used them to OC it to 2805Mhz. In default they're all in AUTO setting. ADM Cool & Quiet is Disabled in other tab.



CPU Clock Ratio [Auto]
Memory Controller Freq. [x7]
CPU Host Clock Control [Manual]
CPU Frequency (Mhz) [255]
PCIE Clock (Mhz) [100]
HT Link Frequency [Auto]
Set Memory Clock [Manual]
Memory Clock [x2.66] 679Mhz
x EPP Mode Disabled
x EPP Voltage Control Normal

DRAM Configuration [Press Enter]
#blinking in red# System Voltage not Optimized

System Voltage Control [Manual]
CPU Voltage Control [+0.100V]
Normal CPU Vcore 1.1000V
DDR2 Voltage Control [+0.350V] 2.150V
NorthBrige Volt Control [+0.050V] 1.250V
SouthBridge Volt Control [+0.025V] 1.125V


Of course memory freqency at 679Mhz was only for testing purposes and in final set up I'd like it to be around 800Mhz.
Last edited by axelwww on Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
Meadows
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Re: Phenom overclocking - brace yourselves [updated]

Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:25 am

axelwww wrote:
Now, here are settings from overclocking menu tab in my BIOS.

Right. First off, set your memory controller multiplier up to 8, and your HT link frequency to "x8" or "1600 MHz" or something sensible, depends on what it says by default.
Some settings are best not left on "auto" when overclocking. (You can probably leave your CPU multiplier on "auto" and won't need to manually set it to x11 though.)

An HT link on "auto" can generate problems when the memory controller IS NOT "auto", which can probably lead to the "unbootable on your next try" problems that force your BIOS to reset.
This is because "auto" is faster than your reduced multipliers, and the HT link must not be faster than the memory controller.


Adjust your memory timings as I described above.
You can even raise your PCIe frequency to 110 or 115 MHz, that should be a tiny bonus with next to no risk.

Is your NB Voltage two notches above normal? No need, it doesn't actually help overclocking, I just recommended one notch for peace of mind.
It's possible that your board either recognises the processor incorrectly (and gives it 1.1 V default), or gives it the correct 1.25 V default, but reports 1.1 for some reason. You have to use the "hardware monitor" (or whatever it's called) menu in your BIOS to find out, or a good piece of software under Windows.
In essence, it's best not to really reach 1.4 V for two reasons:

1. You don't want it with air cooling
2. It won't help overclocking anymore

If everything works (if it does), you can experiment with your RAM by setting the multiplier higher (should report around 849 MHz), using the timings I recommended, and keeping your voltage or giving it no more than 2.2 V, unless your case is well ventilated.
 
axelwww
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Re: Phenom overclocking - brace yourselves [updated]

Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:10 pm

I am in half way to my goal! :D

Meadows, I used all your settings and set up "FSB" at 255Mhz what gave me stable 2805Mhz (stressed it at full load with OCCT. In addition, settings didn't change to default after restart. I guess u were right that leaving HT link freq at Auto was causing BIOS resets.

Unfortunately I achieved it with memory clock x2.66 = 679Mhz. Whenever I tried to change memory multiplier to 3.33 = 850Mhz comp didn't boot up. I tried voltage up to 2.175V. Any suggestions how to solve it?

Here is what I was thinking. But obviously I'm making mistake since comp didn't boot up. Maybe U will find mistake in my logic... I was thinking about setting "FSB" to 301Mhz so memory at x2.66 would rise up to 802Mhz. If I understand correctly Memory Controller Freq value can not exceed frequency of about 2040Mhz. So I lowered Memory Controller Freq (multiplier) to x6. 301Mhz x 6= 1800Mhz so under 2040Mhz. Since HT link always should be lower or equal to Memory controller I lowered it to 1200Mhz (equivalent of x6).

But comp didn't POST and BIOS was going into precious settings.
 
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Re: Phenom overclocking - brace yourselves [updated]

Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:13 pm

axelwww wrote:
If I understand correctly Memory Controller Freq value can not exceed frequency of about 2040Mhz.

Wrong. It's different for every system. Some systems max out around 2100, some systems might take 2200 without a hitch. Don't be afraid until you approach 2100, and only back off if you notice errors.

axelwww wrote:
Unfortunately I achieved it with memory clock x2.66 = 679Mhz. Whenever I tried to change memory multiplier to 3.33 = 850Mhz comp didn't boot up. I tried voltage up to 2.175V. Any suggestions how to solve it?

Have you set the timings as I recommended? That's a crucial part.
You might also need 2.2 V or even more.


I run 4 modules in my own system (8 GiB total), they're value items from GeiL, standard 800 MHz DDR2. I can run them as high as 886 MHz rock-solid (~11% overclock, major for RAM) - what I had to do was lock each and every timing value to something acceptable (6-5-5-18 was the lowest common denominator among the modules), and I have to use 2.3 V as well.

If RAM overclocking doesn't work, just leave it where it was before. Don't worry too much about it.

axelwww wrote:
Maybe U will find mistake in my logic... I was thinking about setting "FSB" to 301Mhz so memory at x2.66 would rise up to 802Mhz.

Your logic is mistaken because you're setting your motherboard to do the impossible.
I know no motherboards that are capable of a reference clock of 301 MHz. Heck, you're a lucky guy if you find one going above 275.
Therefore, your idea is simply no way to approach it. Common boot limits of these chipsets should be between 260-275 MHz, depending on your particular board and luck.
 
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Re: Phenom overclocking - brace yourselves [updated]

Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:18 am

Meadows wrote:
If RAM overclocking doesn't work, just leave it where it was before. Don't worry too much about it.


Under-clocking RAM by 121Mhz- will it not hurt performance of comp?

In order to rise memory clock I was manipulating the settings and I got FSB at 269Mhz and RAM to 716Mhz:

CPU Clock Ratio [10.5]
Memory Controller Freq. [x7]
CPU Host Clock Control [Manual]
CPU Frequency (Mhz) [269]
PCIE Clock (Mhz) [113]
HT Link Frequency [1.4 Ghz]
Set Memory Clock [Manual]
Memory Clock [x2.66] 716Mhz
x EPP Mode Disabled
x EPP Voltage Control Normal

DRAM Configuration [Press Enter]
#blinking in red# System Voltage not Optimized

System Voltage Control [Manual]
CPU Voltage Control [+0.050V]
Normal CPU Vcore 1.1000V
DDR2 Voltage Control [+0.350V] 2.150V
NorthBrige Volt Control [+0.050V] 1.225V
SouthBridge Volt Control [Normal]

But it was done at cost of Memory Controller freq which is now 1883Mhz in contrast to 2040Mhz in yesterday's OC. I read somewhere that it doesn't hurt performance a lot... is it true?

I stressed it at 100% load. Since everything was Ok I did reboot comp to test, will it not reset BIOS. But everything was loaded properly so I could finally checked out GTA IV on new specification. The improvement was seen right away. 40FPS in benchmark on Very High settings vs 34FPS with out OC. After about 1,5h of playing I put comp to SLEEP and after an hour I tried to wake it up. Unfortunately comp restart it loading previous BIOS settings. It confused me a little bit since HT freq is equal to Memory controller.

Anyway I am pretty happy from yesterday's OC settings, but I'd like to OC RAM or at least have it around 800Mhz. I was trying to figure out the better timings but had problem with it. The timings are again set according to your specification. Plus the max voltage setting mobo alludes is 2.175V. Don't see the way to rise voltage to 2.2 or more as U suggested in previous post. I was under impression that Patriot RAM I got was made for OC so now I'm pretty disappointed that I have problem OCing it lousy 50Mhz to 850Mhz.

Meadows: Assuming that I can't manipulate voltage any higher could U suggest other timings or different approach in order to OC RAM.
 
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Re: Phenom overclocking - brace yourselves [updated]

Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:49 am

axelwww wrote:
After about 1,5h of playing I put comp to SLEEP and after an hour I tried to wake it up. Unfortunately comp restart it loading previous BIOS settings.

Some systems respond badly when sleeping with radical overclocks.

You can try fixing it using much higher RAM voltage (up to 2.3 V) - and if that doesn't work, you unfortunately have to give up sleep for performance, and use hibernation or shutdown instead.

Also see if your computer works with the memory controller and HT both at x8 - it's worth a shot to check if your board is higher quality. It'll add up to about 2,152 MHz on each, still possible on certain motherboards.
Downclocking your memory controller can easily impact performance.
 
axelwww
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Re: Phenom overclocking - brace yourselves [updated]

Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:25 pm

Thanks for clearing out my confusion regarding Sleep mode. Now I will know how to proceed.

I tried today setting up HT and memory controller to x8 (2,152Mhz) but BIOS couldn't handle such a frequency and reset it. Do you think that upping voltage on NB would help a cause?

Do U know solution to problem of overclocking RAM? 2,175V is max Voltage I can set it for some strange reason. Are timings the only setting I can play with so RAMs would handle 50Mhz OC?
 
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Re: Phenom overclocking - brace yourselves [updated]

Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:20 am

axelwww wrote:
Do you think that upping voltage on NB would help a cause?

No.

axelwww wrote:
Do U know solution to problem of overclocking RAM? 2,175V is max Voltage I can set it for some strange reason. Are timings the only setting I can play with so RAMs would handle 50Mhz OC?

If 2.175 V is the maximum your board allows, then timings might (just might) save you. It's not certain though.
Have you set your timings the way I recommended?

Also, are there any other RAM options you made no mention of? Write all of them down while in the BIOS, and pass it over here.
 
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Re: Phenom overclocking - brace yourselves [updated]

Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:37 am

It turn out that sleep mode works if FSB is at 255 and RAM volts at 2.150 :P

Of course I'm using for last 2 days timings you specified.

About RAM options in BIOS. I listed almost all of them in my previous posts. In DDRII Timing Items there're also following setting:
TrFc0 for DIMM1 [75ns]
TrFc2 for DIMM2 [75ns]
TrFc1 for DIMM3 [127.5ns]
TrFc4 for DIMM4 [127.5ns]

Next to [Manual] Timing Items where I input it your timing values there're also two columns with grayed out setting for reference only: SPD and Auto.

And another setting:
DCTs Mode [Ganged]

Are there any math calculations needed when setting up timings. By math I mean for ex: correlation between CAS# latency and RAS to CAS R/W Delay ect?
 
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Re: Phenom overclocking - brace yourselves [updated]

Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:12 pm

MEADOWS!!! FULL VICTORY

I played with BIOS setting a little bit more and I got 3025Mhz!!! FSB 2200Mhz!!!

I thinking about trying some more. But latter.

Temp in Idle 45C. Temps at load 58C.

Here are the settings:

CPU Clock Ratio [Auto]
Memory Controller Freq. [x8]
CPU Host Clock Control [Manual]
CPU Frequency (Mhz) [275]
PCIE Clock (Mhz) [115]
HT Link Frequency [1.6Ghz]
Set Memory Clock [Manual]
Memory Clock [x2.66] 731Mhz
x EPP Mode Disabled
x EPP Voltage Control Normal

DRAM Configuration [Press Enter]
#blinking in red# System Voltage not Optimized

System Voltage Control [Manual]
CPU Voltage Control [+0.75V]
Normal CPU Vcore 1.2000V
DDR2 Voltage Control [+0.375V] 2.175V
NorthBrige Volt Control [+0.025V] 1.225V
SouthBridge Volt Control [NORMAL]


Now, that would be disaster if RAM would be under-clocked with such a beautiful CPU OC.
All hope in you :wink:
 
axelwww
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Re: Phenom overclocking - brace yourselves [updated]

Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:22 pm

When I had OC to 2800Mhz I had 41-42FPS in GTA IV benchmark. And with OC to 3025Mhz I got 45FPS. Such a small improvement is pretty disappointing, don't you think so?
 
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Re: Phenom overclocking - brace yourselves [updated]

Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:58 pm

axelwww wrote:
When I had OC to 2800Mhz I had 41-42FPS in GTA IV benchmark. And with OC to 3025Mhz I got 45FPS. Such a small improvement is pretty disappointing, don't you think so?

I don't. It's a good improvement when considering such mediocre framerates.

Should also make GTA 4 pretty well playable. Your board seems to be a sturdy one.
Did you do a BIOS update? Your "normal CPU voltage" didn't report like so previously.

axelwww wrote:
About RAM options in BIOS. I listed almost all of them in my previous posts. In DDRII Timing Items there're also following setting:
TrFc0 for DIMM1 [75ns]
TrFc2 for DIMM2 [75ns]
TrFc1 for DIMM3 [127.5ns]
TrFc4 for DIMM4 [127.5ns]


The "TRFC" timings may affect the stability of your modules, it may help to set them higher sometimes. If your system never crashes, if services and drivers never fail or stop, then you don't need to touch anything. You're practically finished.

Yay to you. :P
 
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Re: Phenom overclocking - brace yourselves [updated]

Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:36 pm

After giving it a thought I agree that FPS improvement was proportional to my OC. A just can't believe what kind of specs gamer has to have to play this game smoothly, not to mention at max settings! :roll:

I have read that my RAM modules can be OC to stable 1000Mhz so I'm not giving up on OCing them. Plus I already learned tons of things about OCing. NO TUTORIAL WILL EVER SABSTITUTE EXPERIENCE :D

Meadows... U have been asking about some extra settings in my BIOS that I didn't write in post. It turns out I didn't write quite a few of them cuz I didn't know about them. When I was playing with settings to get RAM OC'ed I accidentally turned on some extra options in BIOS! It's like christmas. :wink: But it's too late now for me to check them out so I'll only list them and google them tomorrow:

Under RAM Timings Settings:
DQS Training Control [Skip DQS] #[Performe DQS]#
CKE Power Down Mode [Disable] #[Enable]#
CKE Power Down Control [per Channel] #[per CS]#
Memlock tri-settings [Disable] #[Enable]#
Bank Swizzle Mode [Disable] #[Enable]#


And there is also new tab called: "Advanced Chipset Features"
Inside are fallowing options:

HT Link Control [Press Enter]
After clicking enter there are following:

IH Flow-Control Mode [Disabled].................#[Enabled]#

HT Link Tristate [Disable]........................#[Disabled]#[CAD/CTL]#[CAD/CTL/CLK]#

UnitID Clumping [Disable]........................#[Auto]#[Disabled]#[unitID 2/3]#[unitID B/C]#[unitID 2/3&B/C]#



PCIE Configuration [Press Enter]
After clicking enter there is:
PCIE_16 Gen2 Speed Mode [Disable].................... #[Auto]#[Disable]#SW Swithch]#[HW Switch]#
PCIE_1 Gen2 Speed Mode [Disable] ---------------------#[Auto]#[Disable]#SW Swithch]#[HW Switch]#
PCIE_2 Gen2 Speed Mode [Disable] .....................#[Auto]#[Disable]#SW Swithch]#[HW Switch]#
PCIE_3 Gen2 Speed Mode [Disable] .....................#[Auto]#[Disable]#SW Swithch]#[HW Switch]#
PCIE_4 Gen2 Speed Mode [Disable] .....................#[Auto]#[Disable]#SW Swithch]#[HW Switch]#

SB600 Spread Spectrum [Disable] #[Enable]#

UFF... that was a lot of detailed writing. thanx god it all. Meadows- I remember form your earlier posts that U have been manipuleting at least with SB600 Spectrum setting...
 
Meadows
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Re: Phenom overclocking - brace yourselves [updated]

Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:28 am

axelwww wrote:
DQS Training Control

Enable to improve compatibility and stability with non-standard RAM (overclocked, or beyond JEDEC boundaries).

axelwww wrote:
Memlock tri-settings

Power-saving feature.

axelwww wrote:
Bank Swizzle Mode

Enable to improve memory performance further.


axelwww wrote:
IH Flow-Control Mode

Enabling this can improve motherboard performance.

axelwww wrote:
HT Link Tristate

Power-saving feature for motherboard data links.

axelwww wrote:
UnitID Clumping

Boosts "IH Flow-Control Mode" (above).


axelwww wrote:
SB600 Spread Spectrum

Disable this.
 
axelwww
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Re: Phenom overclocking - brace yourselves [updated]

Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:54 am

I'm trying to OC this God damn RAM and I'm failing 97% of tries when it comes to setting up timings :evil:


Plus I used EEP mode to OC them successfully to 880Mhz at 2.150V but FSB was at 220Mhz which isn't enough for CPU OC. I have been reading today that people don't have trouble of OCing them to 1066 or even more.

Tens of people at Newegg.com
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductReview.aspx?Item=20-220-293&SortField=0&SummaryType=0&Pagesize=10&SelectedRating=-1&PurchaseMark=&VideoOnlyMark=False&VendorMark=&Keywords=%28keywords%29&=0&=10&Page=16

And they all giving as example their timings: 5-4-4-12 2T or 5-5-5-12 2T and

If I would choose EPP mode with 255Mhz FSB my CPU would be at 2805Mhz and my RAM would be at 1020Mhz. But for some reason if I set it like this I got no POST. Is there some correlation between RAM freq and Memory Controller Freq I didn't take into account?

If I choose to enable Bank Swizzle Mode comp doesn't POST.
 
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Re: Phenom overclocking - brace yourselves [updated]

Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:16 pm

I can announce semi-success or a least some improvement.

I OC the RAM to the 1020Mhz at 2.175V (reading from OC tab in BIOS; in PC Health Tab reading is 2.224V) some kind of bug, maybe?

I set following latencies and observed 4,5FPS improvement in GTA4 benchmark. In game I experience a lot of shuttering, so at least one of the settings is wrong. I guess one or more is too loosen.

CAS latency 6T
1T/2T Command Timing 2T
TwTr Command Delay 3T
Write Recovery Time 6T
Precharge Time 3T
Row Cycle Time 24T
RAS to CAS R/W Delay 6T
RAS to RAS Delay 3T
Row Precharge Time 6T
Minimum RAS Active Time 18T


Meadows: I was wondering when people are giving timings, for ex: 5-5-5-12 how the rest of timings are set. Is there any formula for it or I just have to try different one until I gonna get POST as I did today?
Last edited by axelwww on Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Re: Phenom overclocking - brace yourselves [updated]

Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:18 pm

Fragnificent wrote:
This all sounds like a complete PITA....I guess gone are the days of simple Athlon XP OC'ing. Do yourselves a favor...get a Core 2. It took me 15 seconds to get a 20% OC out of it and if I tried I could prob get a 33% OC. So simple... :)

they're talking about Phenom I stuff here. My Phenom II has been OC'd 132% (not a typo, but it might be more fairly recognized as a 16%-ish OC) in about 5 minutes. They're also not using Black Edition CPUs where it's just a simple multiplier shift.
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