Socket 478 sweet spot (Abit etc)

[ray_gti-r]

Hi all.

Some of us are still using Socket 478 stuff that does the job quite nicely, thank you very much.

Here's a weird one that has taken me weeks to resolve and caused a new concern.

I run my main PC on a 2.8C 30-cap Northwood with an Extreme Edition heatsink @ 60% fans ((1,250RPM CPU fan ) in an Abit IC7-MAX3, 4gb RAM, XP Pro SP3 & IE8.
All fine. All extremely quiet.
But a certain auction website that I use every day causes 100% CPU usage, humungous memory allocation (1,800MB) etc if I open a few pages - it's just been revamped in Java and also shows Flash a lot. I have to go away and have a cup of coffee for IE to untwist itself and the fans to calm down.

So, I thought I'd plan a tiny CPU upgrade to speed things up - a 3.4ghz Prescott SL7PP with double the L2 cache to help things along (can't afford a 3.4EE, can't find a cheap SL8K4 and I know they both run cooler than the SL7PP).
OK, I know all about the hotter Prescotts so obtained a massive "Flower" heatsink with a 90mm fan that'll run 2,900+RPM flat-out.

Being a cautious kinda person I always test stuff before fitting into my main PC.
I tried the new CPU on a spare industrial M/B (BCM). Temperatures were hotter than any CPU I'd seen before but after a lot of paste testing, swapping about with a spare EE HSF, a solid copper 1U/70mm HSF and the 90mm flower HSF I was relatively happy to plan the new upgrade. For one final test I tried the SL7PP & EE HSF in an old IC7 motherboard.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh!
Horrendous temperatures!!! Far in excess of the BCM board - which I thought was being a bit pessimistic!
Ambient is generally 21C.
HELP!
I know Abit IC7's had a reputation for over-stating temperatures but I'm having real problems now with deciding how to proceed. It seems like the existing setup has hit the sweet spot so what do I do next?

Solutions involving only Socket 478 components welcome!

Cheers, Ray

[Mentawl]

I don't recall the flower coolers really being all that great =/. Is it one of the ones with the 92mm fan hanging over the heatsink via a bracket attached to the PCI slots, or with the integrated 90-odd mil fan? What kinda temps are you getting under load?

[eric93se]

What are you considering hot? and I hope your not looking at the BIOS temperature sensor readout, comparing one board to another is not advisable. Also the fan speed controller might work differently (or not at all) from one board to another.

[bthylafh]

Why'd you decide against a 9x0-series Pentium-D? Seems like that would be a better upgrade if you're sticking with your gimpy old motherboard.

[Wajo]

As far as i know, the Pentium-D's are socket 775 only

[Airmantharp]

There were some Prescott's made for socket 478, but remember that an equally clocked Northwood will be both faster and cooler. Oh well. You're also going to need to show us the temperatures if you'd like for us to compare them!

[ray_gti-r]

Thanks for the new info eric93se I didn't realise that. I thought IC7's were all pretty much similar IRO BIOS temp sensors.
I'm looking at lots of data e.g., BIOS, Sandra & Speedfan.
My 2.8C shows 46C vs 20C ambient in the BIOS on the IC7-MAX3 @60% fans (1,250RPM, EE HSF)

The SL7PP gives 63C vs 20C ambient in BIOS which I consider is hot, with the EE HSF on the IC7 vs 57C on the BCM, same HSF & ambient.
Sandra burn-in kicked in the audio alarm on the IC7 (audio alarm set to 60C), flower fan @ max.
Sandra Idle is about 44C with the flower & IC7 @ 60% fans. Burn in kicks in the flower fan to max before the 2nd run is completed.

I've now underclocked the SL7PP to 2.8mhz in the IC7 wth the flower ... 54.5C max with a fan intake duct placed on the floor. That's way too hot.

Paste is ShinEtsu Microsi G751.
All heatsinks are lapped & polished.
The SP7PP voltage @ 2.8mhz is 1.36V (standard, minimum available).

[Airmantharp]

You're going to have to look at those load temps, and stop worrying about 60C. Maybe start worrying about 85C, but keep in mind that you've got some pretty low-end HSF setups there, so don't go about expecting miracles .

[ray_gti-r]

Sorry Airmantharp - I don't understand any of that. Check my previous posts re: my existing IC7-MAX3 setup @ 60% fans.
To my certain knowledge there were 27 different Socket 478 Prescott versions.

Anyway ... I'll try a spare 3.0ghz Prescott on the IC7 & BCM with EE HSF & flower for comparison.
What I can't understand is why the IC7 shows such high temperatures at all ... the BIOS version is 28 (latest).

(FWIW I do worry about 60C+ vs 20C ambient .. it's just not right given the HSF/paste/ambient combos.)
(FWIW2 The BIOS will load the CPU in pretty much the same way that burn-in does, just without the O/S interrupts.)
(FWIW3 None of these temperatures are on a gaming rig after 4+ hours of play in a closed room in a top-floor flat. Just short-term testing @ 20C ambient & ground level with an open door & window.)

[JustAnEngineer]

Socket 478 does the job quite nicely, thank you very much.

Color me skeptical. For less than $150, you could have a new Socket-AM3 or Socket-AM2+ motherboard, processor and memory. Take a look at some of these components:
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=67694&p=961586&hilit=#p961586

[eric93se]

Yeah, stop wasting your money on old stuff! New stuff is soooo much faster, and waaaay more fun overclocking!

[Kurkotain]

in my experience with pentium 4/pentium d /prescott/ northwood...

65c is a very "sane" temperature, not even the EE copper base HSF will help much against the heat these guys are blowing...
45 - 48 is a temperature you should be happy with... even with a 3.2 478 prescott.... remember intel changed to 775 (with a 10 to 15% more power usage penalty) just to get the pentium 4's better cooling... That's why the fastest 478 is the 3.4 EE and even those suffer from electromigration when uberly overclocked... so don't expect miracles

[Mentawl]

Assuming that's 65c under a fairly heavy load (such as Orthos or IntelBurnTest or similar), that'd be about right for a Prescott P4 I'm afraid. TDP is over 100w for that CPU, and you're cooling it with a relatively small cooler (mass wise) compared to the new flood of high-wattage CPUs.

[MrJP]

As everyone else is saying, Prescotts run hotter than Northwoods, and 60C load temps are nothing to worry about. If you really want lower temps, get a better tower-style cooler, but you'll probably only gain 5deg-10deg maximum.

[Coran Fixx]

Try and run that website that is giving you problems in firefox or chrome instead of ie8.

Hope you get off the 478 train soon.

[ray_gti-r]

Thanks for the (+ve, on-topic) replies.

The last 5 days have been spent re-testing EVERYTHING. Seems that the overriding issue is Core Power. This SL7PP wants between 5 to 10W more than the existing 2.8C and that means more heat for the same clock speed (2.8ghz). Period.
In the past I've tested (many!) 3.4ghz SL8K4's & SL7CH's and they all outperform the SL7PP for actual, in-use temperature rise. Even with a matched Intel cooler they are nowhere near the SL7PP temperatures posted above.

What I guess I was having problems with understanding is this:- for only 5 to 10W more power usage than the 2.8C this SL7PP needs ubercooling.
Bizzarre!
I had even considered water-cooling over the last couple of days but ... that website problem?
Result! It seems they have recognised the problem. Currently not perfect by any means but a LOT quicker. (I had to triple-check everything as I was almost sure something else on my existing PC had changed to turbo mode!). I guess the need for the SL7PP has now gone away???

Cheers, Ray
PS - for the off-topic'ers:- I am familiar on a working level with the E1200, E4300, E6400, Q6600, Atom 330, etc etc. They're fine for what they are intended but they are not an option for a 2-minute Socket 478 upgrade.

[Lucky Jack Aubrey]

I ran a 3.2 GHZ skt 478 Prescott on an Asus P4C800-E several years ago. I was also using one of the 92mm flower coolers. Under load (folding), it ran about 65C. It's the nature of the beast, I'm afraid.

[just brew it!]

PS - for the off-topic'ers:- I am familiar on a working level with the E1200, E4300, E6400, Q6600, Atom 330, etc etc. They're fine for what they are intended but they are not an option for a 2-minute Socket 478 upgrade.

Seems to me you've spent an awful lot more than 2 minutes on this upgrade, and you're not even done yet!

Furthermore, based on what you said back in the original post, the problem here isn't your CPU; the problem is poorly coded Java and/or Flash applets. If you're lucky, the larger L2 cache might make up for the longer, less efficient instruction pipeline of the Prescott core compared to the Northwood. So by the time the dust settles, you're basically left with the ~20% clock speed increase. I doubt that this CPU upgrade is going to make enough of a difference on your problematic web site to be noticeable, let alone worth the trouble.

Maybe by the time you're done futzing around with your system they'll fix the site and the whole issue will become moot...

[FuturePastNow]

The easy solution to your problem would be to block the Flash elements on that site.

[mattsteg]

You're going to spend a bunch of money and end up with a marginal upgrade that puts out a lot more cost and almost certainly does not address your problem. Foolish.

Instead of wasting money chasing marginal gains on an outdated platform, save it for when you need it, if you're currently using "Socket 478 stuff that does the job quite nicely, thank you very much".

If a 3.4 prescott is sufficient, so is a 2.8 northwood. You've wasted far more time futzing about with your switch than such a minimal upgrade would ever gain you.

[bthylafh]

I'm afraid I have to agree with masteregg.

[FuturePastNow]

It is a bit silly, isn't it? I was using a S478 system until April, and if its mobo hadn't failed, I would probably still be using it and waiting for Lynnfield. However, there were some web pages that would push it to 80%+ CPU, and 1080p video was out of the question.

I went ahead and bought a Phenom II, but even the lowest-end Athlon II or a cheap Core 2 like the new E6300 would run circles around a P4EE while using a third of the power. Hell, if you want quiet, these dual-cores can be semi-passively cooled at stock speeds with a tower heatsink that has a slow case fan behind it. And you're dicking around with a 2900-RPM CPU fan so your P4 doesn't cook itself.

It's time for a new computer.

[TheEmrys]

I thought this was a thread necro..... Wow. Way to hold on to the past. GL with the future.

[ray_gti-r]

the problem here isn't your CPU; the problem is poorly coded Java and/or Flash applets

Agreed, hoping a CPU upgrade would solve.

Maybe by the time you're done futzing around with your system they'll fix the site and the whole issue will become moot...

Unlikely - it's a VERY big organisation, begins with an E, ends with a Y.

block the Flash elements on that site

Tried that - Flash wasn't the problem.

You've wasted far more time futzing about [didn't understand] than such a minimal upgrade would ever gain you.

Unproven, but thanks for the time to reply.

It is a bit silly, isn't it? I was using a S478 system until April, and if its mobo hadn't failed, I would probably still be using it

Agreed! Mine hasn't failed (yet?) so I'm still using it.

OK - on to news.

I really, really tried with the IC7 but when it finally needed a mains powered tower fan to just drop the BIOS temps to ONLY 56C I realised there was a major compatability issue. Re-checked BIOS, latest installed. CPU voltaged seemed on the upper end of the VID for this processor so I got suspicious ...

Speedfan confirmed VID was high. (I've left a LOT of detail out but can provide if asked, including screenshots!)

Swapped-out IC7 back to the BSM m/b and ... bingo! Low VID in BIOS and sensible temps again with a standard Intel Extreme Edition HSF (idle 24C @ ambient 20C & burnin 38.5 in Sandra at standard fan RPMs).

To recap:-
"I tried the new CPU on a spare industrial M/B (BCM). Temperatures were hotter than any CPU I'd seen before but after a lot of paste testing, swapping about with a spare EE HSF, a solid copper 1U/70mm HSF and the 90mm flower HSF I was relatively happy to plan the new upgrade. For one final test I tried the SL7PP & EE HSF in an old IC7 motherboard."
So the IC7 was the problem.
Whether it's an incompatible BIOS vs SL7PP or a plain faulty M/B I don't know.
Website slowness may just be down to my old, small (but very cool-running) 64mb MX400 PCI card. That's PCI, not PCX, PCI-E etc. Will try an AGP upgrade if the CPU step doesn't work.
The question NOW is ...
What temps/VID's has anyone with an IC7 MAX3 found using an SL7PP?
Pretty please?
Thanks to all who have responded so far!

Cheers, Ray
(Who is about to complete in-depth comparison of D945GCLF2 vs Asrock A330GC in a perfectly functioning, 7 year-old, Flex-ATX case.)

[JustAnEngineer]

If you got one of those super-cheap Athlon II triple or quad core processors, it wouldn't slow you down much when your single-threaded flash application pegged one of the cores.

[just brew it!]

This is starting to remind me of how -- back in the day -- I stubbornly hung on to my old Socket 7 systems for years after the Pentium III and Athlon came out. I managed to get a couple of 180 nm K6-III+ mobile chips (not easy to find in the DIY market), and installed hacked/beta BIOSes to get my desktop motherboards to recognize them. I was very proud of myself for squeezing the last bit of use out of the Socket 7 platform. One of those K6-III+ chips even ended up running my Web box from 2003 until mid-2005 (well into the P4/Athlon64 era).

The performance relative to contemporary systems pretty much sucked though.

[Flying Fox]

Ebay shouldn't be that slow. Something else may be going on. Malware hogging CPU only when you are on the site? Or the seller embed some CPU hogging snippets onto his auctions?

Foolish.

May be he's not. It is starting to get cold and a PressHot should certainly help.

I agree with the others. It is time to move on. There may not be any active readers that have recent experience with such old hardware. K8, Core 2, Phenom II, i5/i7 there are like 4 generations of stuff for people to move on, and most of them already do.

[ray_gti-r]

Yeah, I know about more modern stuff and I've been there, done that* etc. Meanwhile ... my IC7-MAX3 still gives twice the RAM bandwith of the D945FCLF2 (single channel 1 x 2gb DDR667) & A330GC (dual channel mode with equivalent RAM - 2 x 2gb matched DDR2 667).

In my real-world situation old & working means OK ... for example my 9 year-old Laserjet 4L prints better than ANY modern injket. It's used daily and has never broken/clogged-up/malfunctioned.

Back to the question ... has anyone got relevant data on a SL7PP fitted to an IC7 motherboard. Please?

Cheers, Ray
* Q6600, E4300, Celeron 1200, Atoms etc
PS:- E***Y shouldn't be that slow .... well that's what got me here

[just brew it!]

Yeah, I know about more modern stuff and I've been there, done that* etc. Meanwhile ... my IC7-MAX3 still gives twice the RAM bandwith of the D945FCLF2 (single channel 1 x 2gb DDR667) & A330GC (dual channel mode with equivalent RAM - 2 x 2gb matched DDR2 667).

Umm... what? The Atom platform isn't designed for performance, it is designed for ultra-low power usage. Comparing it with a normal desktop board is pointless. Even an inexpensive (and already obsolete) desktop board like the $80 Asus P5QL/EPU has 2x the RAM bandwidth (dual-channel DDR2-800) of the IC7-MAX3.

In my real-world situation old & working means OK ... for example my 9 year-old Laserjet 4L prints better than ANY modern injket. It's used daily and has never broken/clogged-up/malfunctioned.

I don't have a problem with "old and working" at all, provided it gets the job done. In fact, until just recently my file server was an 800MHz Athlon box I've had for almost 10 years, that I hung onto because it "just worked"; the performance was adequate, and it hadn't given me any trouble, so why mess with it? But you're clearly complaining about performance, and in the same breath insisting on hanging on to a 6-year-old motherboard. That makes zero sense.

Furthermore, after going back and skimming the rest of this thread... if your web browser is gobbling up nearly 2 GB of RAM and tying itself up in knots when you use eBay, I don't think hardware is your main problem. I think your biggest issue may very well be a malware infection...

Back to the question ... has anyone got relevant data on a SL7PP fitted to an IC7 motherboard. Please?

Considering that you haven't gotten an answer in ~3 months, my guess would be "no".

[TheEmrys]

Back to the question ... has anyone got relevant data on a SL7PP fitted to an IC7 motherboard. Please?

The hard part here is that when you have an old system, fewer and fewer people have recent knowledge of it. Fewer people will feel like researching it for you. I still remember DOS 3 fondly, but I'm not sure I could get it to run as efficiently as I did back in the day. Is there an old technology support site? I don't know. Good luck to you.