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Jon
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Taking the MCSE

Tue May 29, 2007 11:55 pm

Yes I know what you thought when you saw the topic, "The MCSE is a worthless qualification" and while I mostly agree that experience speaks far louder than qualifications, tell that to an HR goon that is shortlisting 300 resumes by doing a keyword search for "MCSE" instead of actually reading through the resume to determine if you're the right candidate for the job.

My company has just approved me doing the MCSE and I've received my course materials from GlobalKnowledge, a series of 5 CD's covering the following topics:

  • Microsoft Windows XP
  • Microsoft Windows Server 2003
  • Implementing Windows 2003 Networking
  • Configuring Active Directory Services for Windows 2003
  • Microsoft Windows 2003 Security


Of these 5 I'll be writing 7 exams in total.

I've been part of IT in many different industries for the past 9 years or so and have always wanted the MCSE qualification. Currently I have an A+, Network+, Server+ and a '1year Networking, Internet & Security Diploma' from CDI College (which, in my opinion, doesn't hold much weight unfortunately) and thought it's high time I added those famous 4 letters to my resume.

So I'm throwing the question out there for those that have done or are currently doing the MCSE, what tips would you have liked somebody to have given you when you first started studying for it?
I know it's not terribly complicated stuff, especially considering the amount of experience I have and the general interest I have in this stuff (call it a natural talent for all things technical), but I don't want to take any chances, I'm dotting my 'i's and crossing my 't's and doing this by the book (or the CD in this case).

Once I get the qualification I'll take a break from studying for a couple months before hitting something else like the CCNA.

Tips welcome :D
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Re: Taking the MCSE

Wed May 30, 2007 3:36 am

Jon wrote:
Yes I know what you thought when you saw the topic, "The MCSE is a worthless qualification" and while I mostly agree that experience speaks far louder than qualifications, tell that to an HR goon that is shortlisting 300 resumes by doing a keyword search for "MCSE" instead of actually reading through the resume to determine if you're the right candidate for the job.

My company has just approved me doing the MCSE
I think that's the key here. Since you are not paying for it, then it's not completely worthless. :wink:

Jon wrote:
So I'm throwing the question out there for those that have done or are currently doing the MCSE, what tips would you have liked somebody to have given you when you first started studying for it?
I know it's not terribly complicated stuff, especially considering the amount of experience I have and the general interest I have in this stuff (call it a natural talent for all things technical), but I don't want to take any chances, I'm dotting my 'i's and crossing my 't's and doing this by the book (or the CD in this case).
My only tip is as with other certs like A+, you need to forget what you would do in practice sometimes and subscribe to the "[Vendor's] way of doing things". Then you won't get tripped up by the trick questions.
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aristheo
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Wed May 30, 2007 4:11 am

How soon do you really need it? If I were you, I would wait until the MCSE exams for Windows Server 2008 (aka, Longhorn) comes out, which I think is sometime next year. In the meantime, you can study for other things such as the Vista MCP or the CCNA.
 
tanker27
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Wed May 30, 2007 6:26 am

I have my MCSE.

Advice:

1. Pay for a cram course that practically feed you the exact answers.

2. Find the answers for all the tests online, memorize them.

3. Regurgitate.

As you stated yourself most IT people don't hold much weight to it. However for those NON-IT recruiters they use it to weed out resumes.

The only reason I have mine................My company gave me a bonus for completing it.

Experience trumps all except in the case of any Cisco cert........Damn those are hard!
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JJCDAD
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Wed May 30, 2007 6:51 am

When in doubt pick 'C'.

:P
 
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Wed May 30, 2007 7:01 am

Also MCSE myself.

It really comes down to how good of a test taker you are. Have you taken any other certs? Like A+, Net+, or any of the MCP tests?

I went to school for it and I'm happy to have all my certs but I'm not much better because of it. The crams work. If you like coffee you might want to have plenty handy.
I'm sure you took the SAT or ACT tests. If you did well on those I would prepare the same way.
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JJCDAD
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Wed May 30, 2007 7:44 am

So is that why the MCSE is discounted by most 'real' techies?

We know it's just a silly memorization exercise. When we encounter these problems in the real world, we just look up the answer. Or ask the question on TR! :P
 
tanker27
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Wed May 30, 2007 8:56 am

JJCDAD wrote:
So is that why the MCSE is discounted by most 'real' techies?

99.9% of the time an MCSE answer is NOT the answer to an issue.

No network in the world is set up like a network that is out of the MCSE. Besides there are always short cuts get to something and fix it. Task manager for instance how do you get to it? There are at least 4 ways I know of. And when asked in a MCSE test they want you to say start->Ctrl panel->etc.......whereas we all know that ctrl+alt+del will get you there just as well but thats not the answer M$ is looking for.

Also since the answers to any test are readily available on the internet, I could teach a monkey to take the test and pass it without missing one question.

Someone with hands on experience will always trump a 18 yr old kid with just a paper MCSE.
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Wed May 30, 2007 9:12 am

tanker27 wrote:
Also since the answers to any test are readily available on the internet, I could teach a monkey to take the test and pass it without missing one question.


This was the problem, people would memorize answers and not understand the questions. Which in some cases were good questions even if they were not always real world scenarios.

If you teach yourself to understand most of the questions, especially on the AD tests, it will give you a good foundation on what and how things work.

Again to many people memorized things and thus couldn't think for themselves.

I've had my MCSE since '98. And trust me I've met quite a few paper MCSEs would were clueless if you were doing something different then what the 'test' said.
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Severus
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Wed May 30, 2007 9:38 am

tanker27 wrote:
I have my MCSE.

Advice:

1. Pay for a cram course that practically feed you the exact answers.

2. Find the answers for all the tests online, memorize them.

3. Regurgitate.

As you stated yourself most IT people don't hold much weight to it. However for those NON-IT recruiters they use it to weed out resumes.

The only reason I have mine................My company gave me a bonus for completing it.

Experience trumps all except in the case of any Cisco cert........Damn those are hard!


QFT. If you already work in the industry and have a few years experience having your employer pay for you to attend courses is the ideal scenario. Just buying the brain dumps is the way to go otherwise.

You already have demonstrated experience with the platform from your employment history, braindumping the exams to get the bit of paper so you pass the keyword matching tests when someone looks at your resume is fine in my book.

Where classroom training excels is when you get a good mix of people all familiar with the product in a room together, and get to discuss problems you're facing with people with similar experience and different points of view. Its the discussion which takes place that isnt related to the courseware that is by far the most interesting and valuable component of classroom training in my opinion.

The actual coarse material, which you have to learn in meticulous detail for the exams but in reality would always have instant online access to, is usually pretty worthless for someone who's already worked with the products. It provides good fuel for discussion of topics which won't be examined when you're in a classroom setting. If you self-study it then it becomes of very limited value.

Memorising, for example, the command line switches for a dozen different LDAP tools so you can succesfully answer perhaps one or two questions about them on the actual exam strikes me as a colossall waste of time when you'll most likely not retain this information once you've taken the test as the entire thing is documented for you on demand in the real world by applying the all powerful -? command switch.

Another issue which has been mentioned above is the occasional need to abandon all common sense and answer as the vendor has prescribed regardless of how you would handle a situation in real life (though these scenarios are relatively rare as most questions have pretty limited scope such as the options of an individual dialogue box).

Another recurring problem is factually inaccurate questions within the exams. I've passed multiple exams with scores of 100% or so where I've braindumped the exam. In a few different exams (I can remember one Microsoft and 2 Citrix exams) I've scored 100% by deliberately answering with the answer from the brain dump even though that answer is completely incorrect and either another answer is correct or no correct statement appears.

Identical questions get repeated two or even three times throughout the exams.

Yet another problem I've seen repeatedly is flawed questions such as "Pick two correct statements from the following five" where 2 of the 5 statements would be identical, or 3 of 5 or only 1 of 5 would be factually correct.

Identical questions get repeated two or even three times throughout the exams. ;)

Again these problems dont account for more than perhaps 2 or 3 questions out of say 50 in a given test, but they sour the credibility of the entire testing process.

Some certifications do have more inherrent value - the Citrix, Cisco and VMWare exams all come to mind as the higher level certifications all take place in a lab environment where an ability to problem solve and actually work with the products is tested rather than a simplistic multiple choice exam.

For everything else I'd highly advise you to just cheat! I'm certified up the ass (from years of working for resellers) and I seriously recommend that you spend your time doing your job and not learning the course material to satisfy the vendors. Just get the certification and a pay rise =D
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tanker27
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Wed May 30, 2007 1:57 pm

Severus wrote:

Some certifications do have more inherrent value - the Citrix, Cisco and VMWare exams all come to mind as the higher level certifications all take place in a lab environment where an ability to problem solve and actually work with the products is tested rather than a simplistic multiple choice exam.

For everything else I'd highly advise you to just cheat! I'm certified up the ass (from years of working for resellers) and I seriously recommend that you spend your time doing your job and not learning the course material to satisfy the vendors. Just get the certification and a pay rise =D


I could not stress the above 2 statements enough. I am glad to see other feel the same as I do. :D
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Wed May 30, 2007 2:19 pm

tanker27 wrote:
Severus wrote:

Some certifications do have more inherrent value - the Citrix, Cisco and VMWare exams all come to mind as the higher level certifications all take place in a lab environment where an ability to problem solve and actually work with the products is tested rather than a simplistic multiple choice exam.

For everything else I'd highly advise you to just cheat! I'm certified up the ass (from years of working for resellers) and I seriously recommend that you spend your time doing your job and not learning the course material to satisfy the vendors. Just get the certification and a pay rise =D


I could not stress the above 2 statements enough. I am glad to see other feel the same as I do. :D


QFT!

Get your certs as fast as possible, then use your time wisely by actually installing and running stuff.. that's how you learn!
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Jon
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Thu May 31, 2007 1:25 pm

Very good responses all around. I agree wholeheartedly with most of you and I'm glad to see people with similar views that I have. QFT. I do have a series of MCSE-2000 braindump course materials so I don't know how much of it is still relevant but I'll go through them anyway. The bottom line is that as long as you know the product then you should be able to pass without a problem. I'm looking forward to putting WoW aside for a few months to concentrate on something which should, hopefully, make a difference to my career, if not, then at least from a Human Resources point of view. I'll update this post in a few months when I've passed :D
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